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Gerwyn
Mook
Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 29
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 Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:24 am Post subject: Combat |
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So, i have to ask, how did people find the new combat rules?
What did you like/not like?
Do they work better? did the reduced number of combat calls being thrown around make combat easier to follow and more streamlined?
Certain issues have been raised already (like the assault weapons) which we will be looking into.
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Skippy
Head Chef
Joined: 05 Nov 2008
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:48 am Post subject: |
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Fist fighting = amazing. As we said in debrief, would be even more amazing if you could say locational damage after the strike call so that people could rolemaplay like EVEN MORE.
What's the assault weapons thing, btw?
I did like the increased lethality of guns. Also means that people have a reason not to escalate things from fist fighting.
Meg
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Sarah
Mook
Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:01 am Post subject: |
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I can't comment on new rules vs old rules obviously. I think some of the calls are a bit over-complicated - for example, I dont understand why you need to add the word 'damage' to 'double'. There also seemed to be some confusion about when and how to call what - for example, people calling 'single' with melee weapons.
I like the vitality rules, it means that combat goes on a bit longer.
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Beacon
Recruit
Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 9
Location: Nottingham
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:36 am Post subject: |
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I like them for the most part.
I think it's going to take players and monsters alike a while to get used to the 3 second break between shots (there was a few "doubledamagedoubledamagedoubledamage" calls going out), but on the whole I think it's a move in the right direction.
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Gerwyn
Mook
Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 29
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:45 am Post subject: |
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| Sarah wrote: | I can't comment on new rules vs old rules obviously. I think some of the calls are a bit over-complicated - for example, I dont understand why you need to add the word 'damage' to 'double'. There also seemed to be some confusion about when and how to call what - for example, people calling 'single' with melee weapons.
I like the vitality rules, it means that combat goes on a bit longer. |
It's quite simple actualy (re: the Damage call)
The idea is a carry over from the original system and was designed so that players using weapons with special effects were not disadvantaged, time wise, from players using normal weapons.
For example
Double knockback takes the roughly the same ammount of time to say as "double damage"
as to people calling single, i think this is people not getting used to not being at maelstrom  . It's a a habbit (i notice myself doing it, even when sparing at times) but one i'm sure we can break
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Gonner Hendershot
Not-so-green
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 74
Location: Norwich
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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The three step damage call - target+level+damage - is present in the version 2.0 rules. The latest rules brings it back to target+level+type, where type is a special damage call if appropriate (Stun, Global, Knockdown, etc). If there is no special damage call, like most weaponry, then the type portion is omitted leaving the target+level as the standard call.
As to why the crew were briefed on the old version of the call, I'm not entirely sure. If you combine the new call with the three second warm-up, it takes basically as long to use the old call.
Also, liking the increased lethality of firearms. It means that characters who've only taken Pistols as a combat skill can actually do decent damage and defend themselves a little better than before.
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Jon
It's all my fault
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 149
Location: Londinium
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Gonner Hendershot wrote: | | As to why the crew were briefed on the old version of the call, I'm not entirely sure. |
Because I make mistakes every now and then.
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Gonner Hendershot
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Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 74
Location: Norwich
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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Fair enough.
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Jeff Milhaven
Grunt
Joined: 06 Jun 2006
Posts: 110
Location: Reading, Berks
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: Combat |
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| Gerwyn wrote: | So, i have to ask, how did people find the new combat rules?
What did you like/not like?... |
You know what I'm going to say...
(Jon and Andrew, you can skip pretty much this entire rant, you heard it at the event).
Linear increase on damage (+1 level) combined with a multiplier on time (takes about twice as long to shoot with the warmup) means that the better your old damage, the harder you got it reduced.
old Pistol - 1 damage every 3 seconds or so
new Pistol - 2 damage every 6 seconds or so
no net change at the free skill level
old rifle - 2 damage every 3 seconds or so
new rifle - 3 damage every 6 seconds or so
net change - lost about 25% of the damage output at the 2pt skill level
Gets worse as you work your way up the scale. At 6 character points, you lose 40% on normal shots with the machinegun and sniper rifle (That's after I argued the case and got the base v3 machinegun damage up from 4 to 5, before that the damage was 50%).
Not sure what the solve is.
A multipler on both time and damage gets silly damage really fast, and a linear addition on both would change the warmup for every weapon.
Didn't help that you turned my sustained fire down too. When Suppressive went to Spray, I lost a level of damage on every call and the target gained the ability to soak my shots on vitality. A zero point basic character in partial cover used to drop on the second call if they didn't get fully under cover. Now they go down on the 12th call, while shooting back. I know there's no warmup for Spray and Covering fire, but a full clip only does ten calls.
The scariest gun on the field is less effective than two guys with Uzis (they can cover fire and not hit their mates).
So free guns don't really change, and everything else got downpowered, the most expensive stuff most of all.
And I don't like it, 'cos my guns are the most expensive.
Sorry, but you asked.
| Gerwyn wrote: | | ...Certain issues have been raised already (like the assault weapons) which we will be looking into... |
Yeah, I know, but you did ask.
And as I laid out above, I believe it's a problem with all the firearms, not just assault and heavy. That's before i even get into Sinister Dexter (used to double your damage output, now adds 50%) and the other firearm Virtuoso skills.
| Gerwyn wrote: | | ...Do they work better? did the reduced number of combat calls being thrown around make combat easier to follow and more streamlined? ... |
I didn't notice a difference. That might be to do with the fact that old habits die hard. I saw a lot of v2 combat out there last weekend, players and crew (guilty myself, once or twice). I think it'll get better.
I actually like the introduction of warmup, I just didn't like getting nerfed so hard.
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J. Vaughan
Grunt
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 42
Location: Reading
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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I like warmup as a mechanic. However, I think it jars a little in a wild west style game, where actually the whole fast draw thng can become critical.
As another player who got their weapon heavily nerfed. I'm not so keen on the assault and heavy weapons costing 4 and 6 points respectively any more. Perhaps at the very least make the skills retropective. I never thought it made much sense that a character can handle an assault weapon but not a semi automatic rifle.
Either that or burst fire rules to really mess a single target up.
Also, please try to avoid large gunfights in the dark. It's awesomely scary, but no-one can see each other to actually fight! Bang calls do not make muzzle flash!
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tettheeviltwin
Recruit
Joined: 20 Jul 2008
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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Hiya,
Can't really comment on whether there was an improvement in the combat system or not as I somehow managed to accidentally miss every fight that went on. In fact I've managed to avoid shooting anyone every event I've been to so far! I have a few questions / points to make though so here goes:
1. Do shotguns do knockback still? I'm sure they used too, they seem to have lost the special in the rules but it was mentioned in the event pre - time in brief. From a realism point of view, should they? (equal and opposite reactions and all that)
2. The sinister dexter skill isn't that logical. Sorry to sound a bit power gamery (as it is a skill I went for) but surely two bullets would do twice the damage of one? Or maybe instead, it could just negate the 3 second cool down between alternate single pistol shots in a John Woo kind of rapid two pistol shooting way (although this means more calls for you target to deal with).
3. There's probably a very sensible reason why, but why are the gun skills separated the way they are e.g. should buying the assault weapons skill allow you to use rifles and pistols as well without having to buy their skills as well? Again this sounds a bit power gamery, but I have a few reasons for asking. First thing is that being able to use the range of guns is very expensive for what seems like quite a common ability in the Firefly series and Serenity movies. Even Kaylee can use a repeater!
From a combat character's point of view it would free up points for extra body / vitality, so your advantage as a combat character would be greater staying power in a fire fight. Shooting guns isn't the hard part in gunfights, staying alive for anything longer than a few seconds is. Non-combat specialists - all you master surgeons, cortex ninjas and wizard mechanics still won't be able to afford to divert points to also be machine gunners. As a character who doesn't fit into either category, if I wanted to divert points to combat skills I could up my shootin' options but still wouldn't be able to compete with the tougher full combat crowd. I don't know how the game balance would work out, but I do know that IC, even if my character could use something bigger than a pistol, it doesn't mean that it would ever come out to play except for in extreme circumstances. 9 gunfights out of 10 he'd only have the pistol on him but for those reaver attack moments, just as in the series / movie, that's when he'd go for the biggest gun he could. With the levelling of gun damage I'm not sure how much more effective an assault weapon doing straight damage is over a pistol. Maybe there could be some non-special call rule. And aren't rifles easier to shoot than pistols? Last bit, if you have any military background that isn't super specialised, isn't the first thing you are going to get taught (after marching) is how to use an assault rifle?
4. Should "knife" be a separate 0 point skill to 1 hand melee skill the way that pistol is a separate 0 point skill to rifle?
5. I mentioned this at the post game debrief, but just to bring it up with everyone, the "thrown weapon" skill requirement for throwing a grenade only really makes sense if you are either getting a ref to place the grenade exactly where you want it to go instead of lobbing your finely crafted lrp-safe grenade phys-ref yourself (much more fun), or you are leaving the pin in the grenade and using it as a (potentially far more dangerous when thrown back at you!) half brick. Throwing a throwing knife or similar weapon with the capacity to hurt someone is very very hard and a very different skill to throwing a grenade - that does the hurting work for you.
6. The gun calls are the only spell calls we have to deal with in Serenity lrp and there aren't that many. Slowing them down is sensible, but personally, I could have lived without reducing them. But then I've not been on the receiving end of them.
On the whole I like very much the way that the combat system gives you as a player a chance / option to get out of a gunfight, but it can turn deadly very quickly if you choose to stay in.
Greg. |
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nick
Recruit
Joined: 02 May 2007
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| I was not at the event but I noticed that when the v3 rules did come out I sort of knew that this might happen. I can really think of any linear ways to sort this problem out like all firearms do an extra level of damage. but I think that a combination of changing the warm up and damage calls on the firearm classes,e.g. assault weapons do less damage per shot but have a decreased warm-up between shots, could be a possibility to look into. |
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Beacon
Recruit
Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 9
Location: Nottingham
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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To clarify my position, I really think the current rules for combat should be left in place for at least couple of events so that they can settle in. People (crew and players) need to have a chance to get a handle on them, and utilise them as they are intended (i.e get the hang of using warmup durations, no volley-fire rules etc). One event is, IMO, nowhere near the time needed to get a clear idea of what needs tweaking.
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Slit it down the middle, shove a pound of butter in its guts and throw it on the fire for ten minutes. Beauuutiful. |
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Skippy
Head Chef
Joined: 05 Nov 2008
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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Also, assault weapons do have less of a warm up between calls in that you can do the covering fire etc. calls with them. Which is the massive bonus of having them, to justify the extra skill point cost.
Meg
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Erik Sheefe
Recruit
Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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I know no ones posted on this thread for a while, but i thought that now would be a good time to throw some idea's out there for the refs, not necesarily to change by event 6, but just to think about.
Warm up and quick draw- this is seperate from any quick draw virtuoso skills there may be. I agree that for a 'cowboy'-ish setting quickdraws add a lot, so maybe give guns a 3 second cool down, rather than warm up. Mechanics and effects would be the same, but would allow the snap shot for shoot outs, or when something nasty jumps out at you.
Damage calls- I say leave it as a three step call for all guns, adding 'damage' at the end when there isn't a type. This isn't for the shooter or target, but it means that there is no doubt that the call you heard was gunfire, not someone shouting.
Rifle and assault skills etc- no suggestions, but all i will say is that for independance forces, not all units were trained to army standards, some would be fighting with whatever weapons they brought with them. Maybe say that the military rank skill includes a weapon skill of your choice, up to assault.
Chris
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